一共三个部分:
姚小青译本及评注
朱一峰译本及评注
英文原文
姚小青译本及评注
DEBATE BETWEEN KOHUT (HK) AND KERNBERG (OK)
科胡特和克恩伯格辩论的纠正翻译和分析解读
姚小青 04/17/2019
前言:最近对这篇短短的辩论很感兴趣,于是不自量力把mints的翻译觉得不精准的地方重新翻译了,附上英文原文,愿意和同行们关于这些翻译讨论。括号里的红字是我对俩人的对话的理解和一些解读,这些当然直接影响翻译。
OK:Heinz, are you not indulging the patient's grandiose fantasy that he is the superior one, patronizing the therapist?
克恩伯格:海因茨,病人认为自己高人一等,要治疗师屈尊俯就,(难道)你没有沉溺于病人的这种自大幻想吗?
HK:Of course. The patient must be indulged in this fantasy if he is to experience this developmental stage. His grandiosity must be permitted. This is difficult because for the patient to act out such fantasies alienates the therapist. It is a test of the therapist's capacity for empathy.
共情能力。(前面科恩伯格讲的是治疗师沉溺于病人的自大幻想,科胡特回应的是他怎样理解病人需要沉溺,这可能也暗含着科胡特并没有特别多的沉溺于病人的自大幻想的困境,这点上俩人就没有共同的体会。感觉科胡特在柯恩伯格面前并不自信,虽然他明白他的看法是正确的。这点影响了科胡特共情柯恩伯格。我个人也更认同他的看法和处理。这里,科胡特看到了疏远,这是最关键的。治疗师需要看到病人恐惧建立关系!病人在测试治疗师,我很自大/假自体,这就是我,你还依然爱我吗?这是病人的移情,这意味着治疗师的工作已经取得了初步的成功,病人已经把治疗师当作客体了,已经在原来的客体关系里了,然后就有了建立新的客体关系的机会。病人的需要是客体(治疗师,足够好的妈妈)不远离我,需要治疗师连接到这一点,病人就感觉存在于关系里了。病人从治疗师那里感受到被共情,连接感和不被评判,这些是不同于母亲给自己的体验的。这样的客体关系中,自大的假自体自发自然的会慢慢不再需要,自我身份认同就逐渐建立起来,而不再自卑。
科胡特:当然。如果病人要经历这个发展阶段,他必须沉溺在这种幻想之中。他的自大必须得到允许。(治疗师允许这个)这很困难,因为对病人来讲表现出这样的幻想是为了疏远治疗师。这是在测试治疗师的OK:No, that is not the countertransference problem. The countertransference problem is therapist's fear of the patient's anger. The therapist hesitates to confront the patient's fantasy for fear of provoking his rage. It is a test of whether the therapist can withstand the patient's rage. Indulging the patient's grandiosity only supports a defense against this rage. The rage is generated by the feelings of inferiority that the patient's grandiosity also defends against.
克恩伯格:不,这不是反移情的问题。反移情问题是治疗师害怕病人的愤怒。治疗师犹豫着不敢面对病人的幻想,害怕激怒他的愤怒。这是在测试治疗师能否忍受病人的愤怒。纵容病人的自大,只会支持他防御这种愤怒。愤怒是由病人的自卑情结引起的,病人的自大也是在防御这种自卑。(前面科胡特认为病人的自大幻想是移情,可是柯恩伯格的反应是很好玩的,他说这不是反移情的问题,然后他讲了反移情是怎样的。这里他转换了话题。当然他讲的治疗师可能有的反移情现象没错的。问题是他不认为病人的自大幻想是移情。后面他也说他的病人没有移情能力。)
HK:Yes, well certainly that is a persuasive concept, and many eminent clinicians find it so. I formerly accepted it myself. However, I have since come to the conclusion that the patient's rage is reactive. He is angry because in interpreting his grandiosity you have, in reality, attacked his narcissism.
自恋。
科胡特:是的,当然,这个概念很有说服力,很多著名的临床医生都这么认为。之前,我自己也接受(这样的观点)。然而,我后来的结论是:病人的愤怒是反应性的。他很生气,因为你对他的自大进行的诠释(分析),实际上你攻击他的OK:Oh, but he can't enjoy his narcissism since he really feels inferior to the therapist.
人格障碍患者的问题是潜意识里也评判自己的自恋,他们的自卑是身份上觉得自己是有问题的。治疗的目的是帮他们建立起自我身份认同感。)
克恩伯格:哦,但他不能享受他的自恋,因为他真的在治疗师面前感觉自卑。(柯恩伯格为自己辩论。)(这点确实是对的,也是俩人都认同的。自恋HK:No, I think that is a later capacity. He really does not have the psychic structures necessary to support competitive feelings. To interpret as if he does, only becomes a demand from the therapist to be included in the patient's consciousness.
情绪感受。(忽略这点)好像他能做到一样来解释(分析),这只会变成一种来自治疗师的要求,只为了将其列入病人的意识之中。
科胡特:不,我想这是后面要抓住的东西。他真的没有足够的心理结构来支持竞争的OK:There is no need for interpretations to be experienced as a demand by the therapist as long as the therapist is neutral.
克恩伯格:只要治疗师是中立的,就没有必要将解释(分析)认为是治疗师的需求。
HK:The word is empathic, not neutral. I don't think there is any way to be neutral from your position. Aren't you at risk for feeling like you have failed if you allow the patient to exclude you? Even if feeling excluded did not provoke you, is it not still up to you, for the patient's sake, to prevent him from ignoring and depreciating you?